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0:00Would you say that it should be against the law to discriminate against people based on their body size?
0:04Unquestionably.
0:05So why don't we see more fitness and wellness advocates asking for that?
0:09I'm happy to ask for it.
0:10Ask for it right now.
0:11I didn't know that you thought I wasn't for it.
0:13I wasn't allowed to have a ding dong when I came home and I said, I want ding dongs in my lunch.
0:18You know what my mom bought me?
0:19Low-fat ding dongs.
0:20Maybe there's more to life than trying to lose weight.
0:24That's what body positivity has given me.
0:27You have to like love yourself.
0:29You have to invite love into the space.
0:31How?
0:32By looking at yourself in the mirror
0:33and telling yourself, I'm beautiful.
0:35It's not gonna work, kid.
0:36It does work.
0:37It's an SNL skit.
0:38Are Americans fat-phobic
0:40and obsessed with unrealistic beauty standards?
0:43Or has the body positivity movement
0:45normalized unhealthy habits and lifestyles?
0:48I'm John Rigolato, and today we're gonna have a debate
0:50about what it means to be healthy.
0:52Jillian, how are you feeling?
0:54I feel good.
0:55Debaters, you ready to come at Jillian
0:56with your best arguments?
0:57All right, let's get into it.
1:00Hi, I'm Julian Michaels.
1:01I'm a fitness expert and a health advocate,
1:03and today I am surrounded by 20 body positivity activists.
1:11All right, my first surrounded claim is that
1:13obesity is not healthy and pretending it is
1:15puts lives at risk.
1:21If you wanna be the first debater, get to the chair
1:23in three, two, one.
1:27Hi.
1:28Hi.
1:29I'm Edie.
1:30Nice to meet you, Edie.
1:30I'm an eating disorder therapist.
1:32I'm going to do my best to not use the O word because I find it pretty offensive.
1:38So I'm going to use fat bodied as we talk.
1:42Okay.
1:42Do you understand why people find it harmful and triggering?
1:47Overweight and obese is literally just having too much body fat.
1:52It has nothing to do with the quality of the person.
1:55Yeah, I agree with you on that.
1:56Are we going to debate the claim?
1:59Yeah, I just wanted to clarify, though.
2:03Are we going to pretend like I'm a three and you're my mommy telling me how to talk?
2:06Wow.
2:07Okay.
2:08Okay.
2:09So the claim that you're saying is that it is inherently unhealthy to live in a fat body.
2:17It's inherently unhealthy to have excess body fat, yes.
2:21Okay.
2:22Where are you getting that information from?
2:23Oh.
2:23Okay.
2:24Okay.
2:25There are dozens.
2:26of MRT trials that show having excess body fat, dozens, is causal, not correlated.
2:34No, that's not true. There is no disease that just fat-bodied people get.
2:39I didn't say that. I didn't say that. But obesity lends itself to all-cause mortality across the
2:46board. Have you heard of something called adiposopathy? Okay, so you know it means
2:51literally sick fat. And you understand how it works? Okay, tell me how it works.
2:57So it's an additional layer of fat in the stomach area.
3:02No, that's not what it is. It works as follows. When we eat too much food that has energy,
3:09that we're not utilizing, the body needs to put that energy somewhere, right? So it puts it in
3:14fat cells. So it puts it in initially subcutaneous fat cells, a little bit of visceral fat, which is
3:20fat around the organs. And at first you have hyperplasia, which means we're recruiting new
3:25little fat cells, which isn't necessarily a bad thing up to a point. Now the issue is that once
3:32you can no longer recruit more fat cells, right, you get hypertrophy. So the fat cells start to
3:38expand. And this is exceptionally dangerous because what ends up happening is the blood vessels
3:44get out paste so the fat cells can't get oxygen and they start screaming literally and when they
3:51do they release cytokines inflammatory proteins right i want to of course you do want to pause
3:58because it's irrefutable you don't even know what i'm talking about so dillian okay first of all i
4:05don't appreciate the way that you're speaking to me right now you called me out for just trying to
4:09understand the languaging and saying i was talking to like a three-year-old i felt i was talking to
4:13very respectfully. You're talking to me very disrespectfully right now. Here's the thing.
4:17You're telling me you understand it, but you don't understand it. You fundamentally
4:21didn't describe it accurately. But what I understand is that...
4:25What's lipotoxicity? I don't want to talk about... I am not... Okay, here, I'm going to say this
4:30straight out. I am not a medical doctor, okay? So I'm not going to talk to you about medical
4:34diagnosis because that's outside my scope. And I'm fully willing... Hey, I'm fully willing to be
4:39wrong. What I am here to talk to you about is the fact that people in fat bodies are irrevocably
4:45harmed going into the medical system every single day because of the term, the O word.
4:51So that's what you want to litigate? Yeah. Okay. That's not the claim though. The idea that
4:57fat bodied people are inherently unhealthy is, I believe, incorrect. You're wrong. No,
5:02I'm not wrong. Those are a robust amount of data. I'm not wrong. Okay. So let me finish the thought.
5:08You can't look at...
5:09Then let me finish the thought.
5:10Let me finish my thought first, please.
5:12You can't look at a person's body and tell their health status.
5:17So fat is an endocrine organ.
5:19When it overgrows, it does wreak havoc in the body.
5:24I didn't finish telling you what happens.
5:26So when the oxygen can't get to those fat cells, they'll die and they'll rupture.
5:32And then the immune system starts dumping macrophages in to try to clean it up.
5:35But do you know what's even more unhealthy is weight cycling.
5:38and as we talked about earlier only except for your your your people who have if you want to
5:45talk about that claim we can the claim is so then what are you supposed to do though so let's say
5:50this person is in a fat body and they are inherently unhealthy right we're telling they're
5:55they're unhealthy because they're in this fat body what are they supposed to do will be more
5:59significantly more prone to all-cause mortality for me intentional weight loss fails 95 to 98
6:05percent of the time so what is the you would probably know this better than me because weight
6:11is not an individualistic pursuit you narrow it down to this idea that it's causal like that they
6:18are just not trying hard enough but that is it's multifactorial unquestionably a lot of people lose
6:26weight the problem right is that they put it back on are we in agreement yes okay great why do you
6:31Okay, we've got to pause there.
6:32God damn it!
6:34All right?
6:35I'm sorry.
6:35John!
6:36I'm getting somewhere!
6:38Yeah, but you voted out by the majority.
6:40Please return to your seat.
6:41Okay.
6:47Hello.
6:47Hi.
6:48I have lived in a fat body for, like, as long as I can remember.
6:52And I've known very many fat people.
6:55And I don't think any of us, the people that I know, I can only speak to the people that I know.
6:59I don't think any of us are pretending that we're okay with it.
7:05What I want to say here is I live with autoimmune disorders,
7:10I live with chronic illness, and I'm also neurodivergent.
7:14And this is, the body positivity movement has made it so that I can tolerate this life,
7:21I can find ways to thrive, even still.
7:25but I'm not pretending that this doesn't bother me and by bother I mean that it doesn't hurt
7:34to carry my weight I'm willing to concede with you that carrying around extra weight is harder
7:40it is but I it must be done I don't know that I agree with you okay tell me more please well
7:48tell me why you think it must be done because I've worked really hard to not have have this
7:53What does that mean?
7:55Like you beat yourself up in the gym or something?
7:57No, I don't.
7:58That's not fun.
7:59No, I'm not.
8:00I'm just trying to understand what you mean.
8:03What I mean is that I grew up with a number of undiagnosed conditions.
8:09And even I can think back to like middle school.
8:12And I couldn't keep up when the PE teacher would make us like run laps.
8:16And I'm like, this is physically aching me.
8:18And I didn't understand why.
8:19And I didn't understand why because I grew up with a single parent.
8:23undocumented single parent we were bound to the medical system that we had access to i understand
8:32i've done what i needed to do a number of times to try to lose weight what did you try tell me
8:40i've done done i've worked at i've worked out at the gym i've tried to do pilates i even yoga
8:46even yoga hurts me okay so the exercise causes you pain the exercise causes condition okay no
8:52I'm with you.
8:53Uh-huh, uh-huh.
8:54Dieting, for example.
8:55Okay.
8:56That doesn't make any sense to me.
8:58I don't think that food makes very much sense to me in my neurodivergent brain.
9:02This is where mechanistic eating actually helps people who are neurodivergent, and the
9:06research supports that because it doesn't have to make sense to you.
9:09In other words, it's like you eat on these schedules, and you eat these foods, and you
9:12eat this much, hence the concept of mechanistic.
9:14Hard pass.
9:15I don't like that.
9:16I understand that you don't like it, but you'll have to decide what you don't like
9:18more.
9:19Carrying the weight or the mechanistic eating?
9:22it actually could be helpful. There are other ways forward, but you told me you tried them.
9:26I tried a whole lot. There's a lot of other things to be concerned about. I'm also a social
9:32worker. I work with youth. There are a lot of... Let's go back to you. Uh-huh, yes. I'm saying
9:38for me right There are many things that I more concerned about than my weight My body is not the most interesting thing about me But you just brought up your weight and said I don see a way out of this Right I tried everything And I just take care of it in the ways that I can and I found works for me
9:55But you just told me it didn't work for you.
9:57But it works to an extent.
10:00You just told me it didn't work for you.
10:02It works to an extent.
10:04Then this isn't a relevant conversation if you're happy with it.
10:06I stand on 10 toes, 10 toes down, that we are not pretending that this is okay.
10:12But there's healthy at any size.
10:14There are absolutely elements and aspects of the movement that do put that messaging into the universe.
10:21I've had those debates.
10:23You've said?
10:23I've had numerous debates with people who are body positivity activists that try to tell me that they can be healthy at any size.
10:31And it's just not the case.
10:34And I disagree with that.
10:35All right, we've got a box there.
10:36You've used shame as a vehicle.
10:39I'm sorry, we have to pause.
10:40You've been voted out by the majority.
10:41Please return to your seat.
10:44What I'm curious about is if you care about people's health
10:52and you have people in front of you,
10:54and I'm sure you have people online
10:56who are telling you that the body positivity movement,
10:59or I prefer body liberation, body justice, body acceptance,
11:02body blah, all the good shit that we like.
11:06Okay.
11:06actually increases their health, then I don't understand your debate. Like, what are you
11:12debating if the fat people are telling you it makes their life better? I'm debating their
11:16physical health, and I'm debating the people who claim that you can be physically healthy
11:21at any size. Okay. Do you think you can be physically healthy and mentally unhealthy at
11:26the same time? Of course, but that's not the claim. Okay, sure. I think the part where I get
11:33stuck. I am a mental health professional. I work with people from a body liberation standpoint.
11:39I work with people in all shapes of bodies. What I know to be true from my experience is that body
11:44positivity, body liberation helps people take care of themselves. It's very difficult to understand
11:50why you think somebody is going to take better care of a body they hate. Like why body positivity
11:56would not inspire people to take better care of their bodies. You're strong-mating my argument.
12:01and I never said you should hate your body.
12:02In fact, you should.
12:04No, you didn't.
12:05Okay, so they don't think that.
12:07What I think is that there are people in the movement
12:09who have co-opted healthy at any size,
12:12and it went from access to health care
12:14to quite literally meaning for them
12:16that you can be healthy at any size,
12:18and that's not true.
12:20Okay.
12:21I mean, the studies show that if you're very, very, very, very thin
12:24or your body is very, very, very, very big,
12:26it is more difficult to be healthy.
12:28That is absolutely true.
12:29But then you agree with me on this point.
12:31I don't because I don't think body positivity is the dangerous thing.
12:35I think hatred of fat bodies and people hating themselves and people living in self-loathing
12:41because they've been taught that their body is the wrong shape.
12:44That's the danger.
12:45Both can be true at once.
12:47So let's look at this, right?
12:48So the first thing we would want to do, obviously, is incentivize somebody.
12:52So it's like, okay, what's the why that's going to allow you to tolerate the how?
12:58But hold on, hold on.
12:59that's the positive that's the inspiration piece okay now here's the issue if that piece if all the
13:07things that they get out of it don't serve them as much as the things that are getting out of being
13:13overweight and it does provide quite a lot i can give you an example wait then they're not going
13:19unconsciously they will sabotage the change can i give you an example so you'll understand it
13:23okay there was a kid that i worked with okay on biggest losers 18 years old okay he shows up with
13:28his dad, Ken. They both lose like 100 pounds. They go home and they're visiting their family.
13:35It's the holidays. Doors fly open and there's mom. And mom starts crying. And she's not crying
13:42tears of joy. She feels like they're going to abandon her, like they broke the contract,
13:48like they've outgrown her. And she becomes sad and she withdraws. So what does the 18-year-old do?
13:53he starts eating with mom again. What does the food provide him? A connection with his mom.
14:00I had something similar with my dad. It was one of the ways that we connected.
14:03Food provides a lot of people with a lot of different things. Yes, you cannot eat and not
14:08have your parasympathetic nervous system turn on at the same time. There's no such thing as not
14:11emotional eating. It's fine. It's good. It's great. Food is great. But what I'm trying to show you
14:16is that if in some cases the pain associated with continuing that defense mechanism
14:24is greater than the pain associated with change, it helps people change in some cases.
14:33Not in the long term.
14:34And I agree with you.
14:35I'm sorry you've been voted out by the majority.
14:39Please return to your seat.
14:40so we earlier you're speaking about how these there's randomized control trials that show
14:51mendelian randomized control trials that have now shown us that obesity is causal to all-cause
14:56mortality okay so i i disagree with that i think there's going to be a problem with dozens yeah
15:00so here's why i disagree because you can disagree no but let me please please let me hear me out
15:06Okay.
15:07So the reason why is because registered dietitian, school for six years, studying nutrition, weights, all the stuff.
15:14And we can't keep...
15:15Tell me what lipotoxicity is.
15:16It doesn't come up in my curriculum because it's bull****.
15:19Because it's a TikTok thing that's like, you know, cortisol face or whatever.
15:23It's not, listen to me, it is not bull****.
15:26It's ectopic fat.
15:28But can we just say because you keep sidestepping and then we can never get anywhere.
15:31I'm not sidestepping.
15:31This is the claim.
15:32Okay.
15:32Okay.
15:33The claim is that obesity is unhealthy.
15:36Lipotoxicity is not bull****.
15:39It is the definition of ectopic fat.
15:42It's funny it never came up in six years of a professional accredited undergrime.
15:46What's fatty liver disease?
15:47I know what fatty liver disease.
15:48Where's the clinical dietician at a hospital?
15:49That's lipotoxicity.
15:50Okay.
15:51Okay.
15:52When fat is in the liver, when fat is in the heart, when fat gets deposited in the brain,
15:58that is lipotoxicity.
15:59And it happens when the body has no place to put the excess energy anymore.
16:04Okay.
16:05refutable that that is bad for your health. Can we just go back to the correlation doesn't equal
16:10causation? So you're saying there's causal studies, right? Yes. MRT studies that show.
16:14The acronym is great. Okay. So my thing is the reason why we cannot show that, that the fat in
16:21and of itself leads to the negative health outcomes is because we cannot keep a human in a lab and
16:26control every factor, but have the only thing that's different. That's why they use Mendelian
16:30randomized controlled trials. But can you just listen? So a person- That inherently eliminates
16:35any conflating factors because they're based on genetic predispositions coupled with lifestyle.
16:41But can I just share something? A person in a larger body has experienced things that we can't
16:47undo from the fat. So for example, they might have negative health outcomes because every time they
16:53go to a doctor, instead of being given an evidence-based treatment, like I have unearthed
16:57privilege. I go to a doctor, I say, you know, my stomach hurts. I get a full workup.
17:01You're basically saying the earth is flat. Are you trying to tell me that having fat in your liver,
17:06I just want to talk about fat in your heart, having fat deposited in your brain is healthy?
17:11No, I just want to talk about no, you're not trying to say that it's healthy.
17:15No, I'm not trying to tell you that is what I said. I was never talking about the health of it.
17:18Okay. I'm trying to say everything you're saying is hinging on this idea. And it's a problem that
17:22we disagree on it, that it's the weight in and of itself that leads to the negative health outcomes.
17:27You're saying this MRT totally is-
17:30Fat is an endocrine organ.
17:32I know, but can you-
17:33It destroys your hormone balance.
17:36It creates insulin sensitivity.
17:39When the body has too much fat,
17:41it releases insane amounts of different-
17:45I just wonder,
17:46have you heard of social determinants of health?
17:48Tell me about it.
17:49Okay.
17:49Social determinants of health,
17:50a group of factors that impact someone's health outcomes
17:53that are things like your healthcare access and quality,
17:57neighborhood and built environment,
17:59things like your stress levels, socioeconomic status.
18:02So here's the thing.
18:03A person who's fat or lives in a larger body,
18:06we can't take away that that person
18:09has probably experienced higher stress levels
18:11their whole life from experiencing marginalization
18:13every corner from shows like The Biggest Loser
18:15to the doctor's office.
18:16We can't take away that they haven't been given
18:19evidence-based health options
18:20because when they go to a doctor,
18:22they're told to go lose weight. When fat gets deposited in the brain, how does, how does,
18:28I'm confused. Are you suggesting these are the reasons people become overweight? No,
18:32I'm suggesting that a person could be in a larger body and be perfectly healthy on a,
18:38based on their labs, their cholesterol. Do you realize that only 7% of people who are classified
18:43as overweight or obese, call it whatever you guys feel comfortable with, only 7% are classified as
18:50healthy. Say that was true. Say we knew for certain that it was unhealthy, that what you're
18:58saying is true. But even then, even then we'd be in this place where, okay, so what do we do?
19:05Are we going to send someone down a path of trying to lose weight and then gaining and trying and
19:09gaining? And we know that weight cycling in and of itself, bad for the heart, bad for insulin,
19:13bad for the brain, bad for all the things. We work with that individual. That's what I do in
19:17my private practice.
19:18Well, that's wonderful.
19:19Yeah, and I don't encourage weight loss
19:21because it's unethical.
19:23I disagree with you.
19:24And what's ethical, you were asking before,
19:26what are professionals do I think it unethical not to be transparent with people about the dangers Transparency is the dangers of weight cycling You can go down that path That a separate issue You presuming they weight cycling
19:37If you're doing your job, they shouldn't have to weight cycle, right?
19:39No, it's not about me.
19:41It's about the body.
19:41The body is so smart.
19:42We are, but we're animals.
19:44Our bodies, when we lose weight, our body goes, oh, she just starved me.
19:47I'm going to do everything I can to try to get back to that place.
19:51Drive up thoughts about food.
19:52I think it's more complex.
19:53Slow down metabolism to conserve the energy you are getting.
19:56So are you suggesting that because it's hard and it's multifactorial, we should negate the dangers and not try to get healthier?
20:02I'm suggesting that it's more dangerous to weight cycle than it is to stay in a fat body.
20:06That's still not the claim.
20:08And if you want to show me that, sure, show me the data.
20:11I'm not going to argue with that.
20:12It's not healthy to do that either.
20:14That's still not the claim.
20:15Your claim is not in other stuff.
20:16This isn't a hierarchy of what is unhealthy.
20:18We're out of time.
20:19We have to pause there.
20:20Yeah, thank you for that exchange.
20:22My next surrounded claim is that the large food companies are one of the primary
20:27Beneficiaries of the body positivity movement. All right, if you want to be the next debater get to the chair in three two one
20:43So
20:44What are you classifying as large food companies? Okay, um PepsiCo, Coca-Cola
20:50General Mills. Okay. Now, if they were beneficiaries and benefactoring and making all this money
20:58off of the body positivity movement, why is it that they spend billions on calorie counting apps
21:06on a lot of things that we see in society as forcing the losing weight or talking about losing
21:13weight? Because that to me doesn't make sense and doesn't correlate. But also people that are
21:19benefiting from this are the people in the body positivity movement themselves. A little bit about
21:25myself. Wait, can I clarify one thing? Oh, please, please, please. I'm talking predominantly about
21:29finance. Okay. Sorry. Perfect. Thank you. Even that, I still will say, so I come from the wedding
21:35industry. So I created the first publication in the world for plus size brides. I've now gotten
21:4113 wedding publications around the world. And my biggest thing is, is the wedding industry is very
21:48centric on this is what the wedding industry looks like i have created a platform where body
21:55and not just larger bodied body positivity but body positivity for all sizes and i'm going to
22:03come specifically from the wedding industry which is very different i know but it still is a very
22:07weight centric okay so your argument is the the wedding industry is the primary beneficiary no i'm
22:13I'm not saying that. I'm saying that's where my knowledge comes from. But the body positivity
22:18movement is really for us. We are the main, and I'm saying we, because I'm a large body person.
22:24I totally understand. That's where it's really coming from.
22:27Can I show you the ways they're exploiting it?
22:28Oh, please.
22:29So there have been two really big exposés, one by the Washington Post and one by the examiner.
22:35So they're coming at this from numerous angles. So the first one is they've gone after a lot of
22:42the intuitive eating dieticians.
22:44So let me just, can I give you some statistics?
22:45Please, please, please.
22:46Okay, so Washington Post analyzed
22:48more than 6,000 social media posts
22:51by 68 registered dieticians
22:53with a combined reach of over 9 million followers.
22:5640% of them were using the anti-diet language, right?
23:00Like food freedom, no food rules, ditch the diet,
23:03healthy in any size, so on and so forth.
23:06Very often not disclosing the fact
23:08that they were paid by the big food companies.
23:11Okay.
23:11Okay, so they're basically going after the intuitive eating dietitians.
23:16I can give you Abby Sharp.
23:18That's okay, though, but I want you to listen.
23:20Okay, yeah.
23:21Because they are doing that, but the aspect that the body positive movement is really for us,
23:27that is not even anywhere we need to equate into it.
23:31I don't agree with you when they're using your movement.
23:34But do you, and I'm going to say this clearly for right now,
23:38I don't care who uses my f***ing movement.
23:39I want the movement to be there
23:41And that right there
23:44They can take it, it's marketing and sales 101
23:46Of course they're going to use the movement
23:47But then why can't you guys say
23:50You don't get to co-opt our movement
23:52That's not for me to do
23:54I don't care about that
23:55The thing is we don't care
23:57But it's not about we should
23:59We are doing what we're doing
24:01Because this is our family
24:02This is our world
24:04It doesn't matter
24:05Do you think I can
24:08But the thing is, we don't care.
24:10We are the movement.
24:12But there are a lot of people that are being hurt by this.
24:15And these guys essentially are engineering food to be addictive.
24:21And you know what?
24:22And I will say this.
24:23I will say this.
24:24I will give you the claps on that.
24:26I will say, yes, that is true.
24:29But what I do want to say is that it happens all the time.
24:33A movement starts and someone comes in and takes it.
24:36And someone comes in and comes in.
24:37and someone comes in and runs with it.
24:39You don't deny it.
24:39You just don't care.
24:40That's what you're saying.
24:40I'm saying it's fine for them to do that.
24:43But the bigger issue that I want you to realize
24:46is that the body positivity movement
24:49is ultimately for us.
24:51If someone wants to come and get on our coattail,
24:53that's perfectly fine.
24:54But for us, it doesn't need to go away.
24:57It doesn't need to go anywhere.
24:58It doesn't.
24:59Who's asking for it to go away?
25:00But it is being.
25:01I'm suggesting.
25:02Now, see, there's a suggestion.
25:03Okay.
25:03I like it.
25:04I like a suggestion.
25:05I'm suggesting that it could evolve,
25:06that you guys could call out when you're co-opted,
25:10that you could centralize messaging
25:12so that it's not all over the place.
25:14Now that, Julie, I am not opposed to.
25:16I'm not opposed to that.
25:17But I'm not saying it.
25:18That's not a claim.
25:19No, but the thing is,
25:20is I want you to know who the true beneficiaries are.
25:23You're saying that they are the main beneficiaries.
25:26I'm speaking financially.
25:27I apologize.
25:28And that's okay.
25:29But you're saying,
25:30the claim says that the large food companies
25:33are the main beneficiaries of the body positive movement.
25:36That is not correct.
25:38I understand.
25:38Because we are the main people.
25:41We are the main beneficiaries of the body positive movement.
25:44If someone wants to come and get a hard coat up, go ahead.
25:47Disagree with you on that.
25:48And that's okay.
25:48I think that's a mistake.
25:49And that's okay.
25:50I think that you guys could tell them, you could expose what they're doing.
25:55Can I read you something else?
25:56Please.
25:57I'm here to hear.
25:58Can I just show you how diabolical this is, okay?
26:02I have a friend that's on the inside.
26:04He sent me this.
26:06He goes, I just want to show you the ways in which this is being, instead of, I can't say that.
26:12A big food.
26:13You got it.
26:13Exactly.
26:14Okay, so here's the intentional message overlap, right?
26:18So healthy at every size, quote, you can be healthy in any size.
26:23Corporate benefit removes health concern barrier to sales.
26:27Stay with me, okay?
26:29Dieting doesn't work.
26:31Protects snack foods from being cut.
26:34healthy at any size weight and health are unrelated corporate benefit deflects from
26:40products causing obesity healthy at any size weight stigma causes disease not weight wait wait
26:48okay i'm just showing you this is this is what i want to bring what i would love and i'm saying
26:54love because i want it but i love it more if there is such a resistance to the body positive
27:02movement and I'm speaking specifically kind of from your standpoint yes yeah if there's such a
27:06resistance to the body positive movement why are you saying why are you letting them take money from
27:12you wait where's the resistance I'm telling you I'm acknowledging or saying that it's actual
27:18that it needs to be I think that there are absolutely I think that intuitive eating is
27:24a goal, not a treatment plan. I think that having access to health, which is what Health
27:32at Every Size was initially intended to do, I think all those things are important. I think,
27:37unfortunately, the fact that the movement is decentralized and it's prone to being co-opted,
27:44it can do harm in the ways that I have shown you. That's what I'm saying.
27:48And that we can agree to, I can agree with that.
27:51We got a pause there.
27:51That's good.
27:52We got a pause there. You've been voted out by the majority.
27:55Well, I really appreciate this.
27:56Thank you.
28:01So I really want to focus on what you've just been saying about the co-opting of the movement.
28:06Because what you seem to be critiquing is the people who've co-opted the movement, not the people who actually built the movement.
28:12Not the people who actually are the movement.
28:15So the idea that...
28:17Who is the movement, though?
28:18So the thing is, I don't want to name names, but there are many influencers who have said these things.
28:25So who's the movement?
28:26Influencers and activists are not necessarily the same thing.
28:28We were allegedly invited here as activists and advocates.
28:31Not always the same thing, right?
28:33I don't disagree, but it's become, as I mentioned, a patchwork quilt of like, I'm an activist.
28:40I'm an influencer.
28:41I'm a dietician.
28:42Whereas when you look at something like AA, it's very clear.
28:47There's something very clear about the Health at Every Size movement.
28:49Health at Every Size is actually a registered trademark of the Association for Size, Diversity, and Health.
28:54So when people are misusing that, we are a movement that doesn't have the same resources as the health and wellness industry or the health and wellness grifters or the major food industry.
29:05We don have those same resources to fight every time somebody misuses our terminology our philosophies our practices our values but there are some of us out there who are doing that right I never see the caveats I never ever see the freaking caveats
29:23So one thing is-
29:24But maybe today-
29:25Maybe you could help amplify some of the caveats.
29:27I am doing that right now.
29:29Okay, so let's go to the claim.
29:31I'm trying.
29:32The claim that body positivity is primarily benefiting big food companies.
29:35I mean, financially.
29:37I got it.
29:37Because individual benefit, I can't, it's not quantifiable.
29:40I'm talking about the way these are manipulating this message to do things that I think are very unethical.
29:50So if body positivity is feeding their profits, will we see their profits reduce as this pendulum swing away from body positivity continues to go back to the, you know, like I get asked all the time as the director of NAFA, is body positivity over?
30:05Is body positivity over because of ozempic?
30:07Is body positivity over because of maha?
30:10You know, is body positivity over?
30:12Part of my argument is it depends on what you're in body positivity for.
30:15If you're in it for systemic change, it ain't over because the system ain't changed, right?
30:18But I do concede the point that, like, we are moving away from some of what we saw as body positivity for the last 10, 15 years.
30:25What do you mean by that?
30:26As we move away from that.
30:27It's less popular.
30:28It's less trendy.
30:30We're moving more towards a thin-centric ideal again or, you know, leaving behind.
30:34we've labeled body positivity DEI
30:36and we're turning away from that, whatever.
30:38As we move away from that,
30:40are we going to see the profits of these food industries drop?
30:43Well, you are.
30:45Why would you need to make food genetically addictive
30:48if body positivity can just sell that food?
30:51If you could just tell people,
30:52when you feel good in your body,
30:53you're going to eat all the Nabisco snacks that you want to,
30:56then why do we have to make them addictive?
30:58Do you realize that they don't even want you to stop eating one chip?
31:01This is how incremental they are about this.
31:07They literally engineer.
31:08That sounds.
31:09Okay, just hear me out.
31:10They don't even want you to have to stop and take a drink of water when you're eating their chips.
31:16So they engineer how much fat is in your mouth in each bite.
31:20There are a team of multidisciplinary scientists that literally work around the clock 24-7, day after day, year after year.
31:31They're body positivity scientists.
31:32No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.
31:35So this is the thing.
31:36No, I'm saying they want no friction.
31:37What you're describing is a misuse of science.
31:39Yes.
31:39What you're describing is business.
31:43What you're describing is capitalism.
31:44Yes.
31:45What you're describing is greed.
31:46Yes.
31:46Body positivity is not the reason for that.
31:50No, I'm suggesting that I think you guys should get pretty freaking vocal and pissed
31:57because these guys are actively manipulating your message.
32:01So much, I haven't even gotten to half the shit that they do.
32:04So, for example, they have effectively lobbied
32:07to remove nutrition guidelines and warning labels
32:10on food packaging because of harmful shame.
32:14It's like trans fats are bad for your health.
32:19It's a fact.
32:20They have advocated for that.
32:22The body positivity movement, the fat activist movement.
32:25They're using our language.
32:27Like you said, co-opting.
32:28Yes.
32:29Right.
32:29So they should stop co-opting our s***.
32:31But they're not going to.
32:32But yes, that's what I'm saying.
32:34So how do we know more?
32:35I think you guys should get pissed about it.
32:36Like, I get the things you're pissed about.
32:38We are pissed about a lot of things.
32:39I get it.
32:40Can you add this to the list?
32:41It's a long list.
32:41Add this.
32:42This is.
32:43I'm saying they're the primary.
32:44You want to indict someone?
32:46Indict these.
32:47It is on the list for some people whose focus is body positivity, right?
32:51We have different foci.
32:53I, you know, I do civil rights stuff.
32:54Some people do fashion stuff.
32:55Wedding industry.
32:57health, you know, health and wellness eating disorders.
32:59We have, there are folks who are thinking about the food industry.
33:02There are folks who are nutritionists who are, you know, like I can't,
33:05without seeing the list of like the people that I,
33:07I remember the Washington Post article.
33:09Some of those people are not people that I would associate with us.
33:13I understand, but they're literally,
33:15many of them are certified in intuitive eating.
33:17Okay, but they're not.
33:18Like Abby Sharp.
33:19Okay, but that's not health at every size.
33:21Intuitive eating is not a health at every size principle.
33:23That's part of my problem with the movement is that it's like, oh, but it's not that part.
33:30But it is that part.
33:32It's all of it.
33:32You're saying our problem is that all the things get conflated, but you're conflating some of the things.
33:37I'm saying my issue is that because it's become a patchwork quilt, an amalgamation of movements and voice.
33:48Oh, it's an activist.
33:49It's a political, it's an influencer.
33:51It's a celebrity.
33:52It's a, it, there's no accountability for any of this.
33:56There's no through line and it allows exploitation in ways that I think can be hurtful.
34:02Why isn't the entire public holding food companies accountable for food company evils?
34:08I think why is it the, why is it, are they?
34:12You don't think so?
34:13I mean, they're, they're reevaluating the generally recognized as safe rule.
34:16They just changed the food pyramid, which guides, do you want to talk about that one?
34:20It guides hundreds of billions of dollars in subsidies.
34:23And now they're mandating.
34:25So Maha is focused on the food industry?
34:27They're definitely focused on it.
34:29They're part of it.
34:30Okay.
34:30I think there are a lot of people that are focused on big food.
34:32You do understand how and why they have significantly more resources than actual body positive activists, right?
34:39I'm not saying that they don't have more resources.
34:42I'm saying, can you see this issue?
34:45What do we do about it?
34:46um well do you think it's a problem i think it's a problem i mean i think there are a lot
34:53of problems i think one of the problems is the assumption that everything that has to do with
34:59um with with food and its lack of health correlates with fatness because we are saying
35:04body positivity again well no we are saying body positivity and body positivity includes all kinds
35:12of ways of being in a body, right?
35:13Not just body size.
35:14It includes all of the things about disability
35:17and skin color and hair texture
35:18and all of the things, right?
35:19Body positivity.
35:20But we really have been coding that
35:22in this conversation to talk about body size, right?
35:25And you can understand.
35:27Okay, I actually didn't think body positivity,
35:29to be dead honest with you,
35:30I've never interpreted body positivity
35:32to be about skin color or gender ideology.
35:36But some of the people who...
35:36I really never did.
35:37I didn't.
35:38But some of the people who started body positivity
35:40and practice it today and talk about the values that have meaning for that.
35:44I don't think anybody sees it that way.
35:46I don't think that's true.
35:46That is not a part of the movement.
35:48I think the general presumption...
35:50The general presumption is that it must focus on weight and weight loss
35:54because that's a bigger narrative in the culture than some of the other stuff.
35:56But that is who we are seeing advocate.
35:59We're not seeing a person who's black being like,
36:02I'm body positive because I'm black.
36:04They're generally in a different civil rights movement.
36:07I think that discounts the black leadership in this movement, right?
36:10I'm not saying that.
36:11I'm saying it.
36:12I very rarely see people of color simply based on prejudice regarding their skin color using body positivity to make their point.
36:24I see them.
36:25This is a movement.
36:27I see people who are.
36:27You see people who have multiple identities that include their skin color, their gender presentation, their disability.
36:35Yes, but the core issue they are addressing is what?
36:37related to their body size and those other issues.
36:41We had somebody else earlier talk about that.
36:43I've never seen it in all the years.
36:46I've seen active...
36:47Has anybody else here seen that?
36:49Hang on.
36:50What you started, right?
36:52I'm sorry, I'm sorry.
36:53The organization that you work for
36:54had to do with the gentleman that started this organization
36:57because his wife, label it however you would,
36:59I don't know what word you guys feel comfortable with.
37:02We've been using fat for 57 years.
37:04Fat's okay to use?
37:06Okay.
37:06Yes.
37:07But see, you are, but listen, Jillian, you've positioned yourself, you've positioned yourself
37:14as really, really knowing this movement and really knowing where we're showing up.
37:18And it is really, really common for activists and advocates to talk about using fat as a
37:24neutral descriptor.
37:27We just say fat, right?
37:29Okay, fine.
37:30So this was started by a gentleman whose wife was fat, who was discriminated against.
37:35Yes.
37:35That's where your part began.
37:36intuitive eating is a different animal.
37:39That's not how I came into it
37:40through body positivity, right?
37:41You understand, but that's how the movement started.
37:43No, that's how my organization started.
37:46The movement started with black women and femmes
37:50in the civil rights movement,
37:52with women, with people at Stonewall
37:55who were fat people, with fat performance.
37:57That's how the movement started.
37:58What's the through line though?
37:59What's the through line?
38:00What do you mean?
38:01Okay, so people at Stonewall,
38:03is it because they were gay
38:04or because they were gay and as you guys say, fat?
38:06Right.
38:07It was because they were gay, but there were fat people there,
38:12and those fat people talked about their fat bodies.
38:14Gay people are part of the body positivity movement?
38:17A huge part of the body positivity movement.
38:19On the merits of just being gay, guys.
38:22Not gay and fat.
38:24Defending people's body sovereignty, people's body autonomy,
38:28people's right to live freely in their body.
38:30What is the core premise of discrimination?
38:33It started with regard to being fat.
38:36Am I right?
38:37That is what he started your organization for.
38:40My organization, yes.
38:41Okay, Healthy at Every Size is about access for people.
38:46Right, and Healthy at Every Size principles talk about intersectionality and multiply
38:51marginalized people.
38:52But that is not how the messaging is being put out now.
38:56Sorry, we have to pause.
38:57It's an important piece of the movement.
38:59I'm sorry, we've got to pause, guys.
39:00You've been voted out by the majority.
39:02Please return to your seat.
